Matthew: Today, I am with Rhonda Magee in the school of law at the University of San Francisco. This is part of an audio broadcast we're doing that I call Inclusivity 101. We want to go over some basics of what inclusivity is and maybe how to more productively think about it in terms of real classroom situations. During the 2013-2014 academic year, both in her role as co-director for the center for teaching excellence and in her other roles in the school of law and elsewhere at the university, she's given several presentations and talks and discussions that revolve around the theme of inclusivity, including a one day workshop. Rhonda, thank you so much for coming, and I'm really looking forward to this.
Rhonda Magee: Thank you, Matthew, me too.
Matthew: I'll have to start with what might seem some silly questions to you but I really wanted to start with-
Rhonda: No silly questions. There are no silly questions.
Matthew: Okay. I'll start with the basics for people so we have a common language. First, I wanted to define some terms or how- I didn't want it to find it. I wanted to get a sense of how you think about these terms so we have that common language. One, just starting at the beginning, that people use all the time is identity safety, and I even want to start before that. When we're thinking just about identity, what's the full spectrum of what that means to you in an educational setting?
Rhonda: I would say, for me, I focus on not identity generally but social identities. I might back up by reminding us both that a classroom is a social environment as much as that it is an intellectual environment and may be characterized by different descriptors, but it's definitely a social environment. Our social interactions, psychologists and sociologists will tell us, are characterized by ways of identifying ourselves and others that are tied to cultural, historical dynamics of a given time. The identities that are linked to these cultural, historical, and social dynamics may become relevant in a classroom. There are many different ways that each of us has to identify ourselves in terms of our- socially.
For example, myself, I sometimes think of myself as a lawyer. I think of myself as a teacher. I'm a woman. I'm an African American woman. There are many different descriptors that we might attach, and as just indicated, some of them are multiple. They intersect, as we call it, so that we may identify ourselves as both male and white. In terms of what becomes really relevant for classrooms and in even more particularly relevant for thinking about identity safety and inclusivity is important to think both about the range of different ways that students might identify themselves, generally, and to be open to conversations about that in your classrooms and supporting students in conversations that they might want to have about those.
It's also important to be thinking, specifically, as a teacher, about the particular identities that have in a particular time and place been more or less marginalized. In American education, we tend to think of education in America as an ambiguous vehicle for moving up, mobility, bettering oneself. That has been true for many of us regardless of our backgrounds, but in educational settings, it's also been the case that some of the ways that we have marginalized and excluded folks outside of the educational setting have crept into or been explicitly brought into the educational setting itself. Therefore, the classes that we teach today may be spaces in which people who were differently socially identified may feel themselves to be more or less included or more or less safe.
Those identities that we're talking about then are not simply, does this person identify as one who likes a certain type of crossword puzzle, but more specifically, is this person identified in a way that's socially and culturally might've been marginalized in this space before? That narrows the scope of social identities from this big, broad pool of the various different ways people might identify themselves to a few specific ways that we want to particularly be attentive to, identities around race, identities around gender, identities around age, physical capacity or ableism, sometimes, religion depending on the time and space and maybe class, those identities that have been particularly salient in the society that we live in that we are most mindful of when we think about identity safety and inclusivity.
Matthew: Now, I want to ask you about this a little bit because it can become confusing at times. The word identity and identity safe is used a lot, and you've talked about that very nicely, but also, this term inclusivity is used. What's the same and what's different between these two terms, identity safety and inclusivity?
Rhonda: That's a good, hard question. Let me start by talking about inclusivity a bit. I'll say that this is my way of thinking about it, people may differ. As I see it, inclusivity is a broader term, which encompasses identity safety. The broader term inclusivity, let's start there. First, let me say that in education, inclusivity has traditionally or inclusive classrooms with a movement to include or inclusion, for a very long time, really mostly had to do with the efforts to create classrooms where children with special educational needs could have those needs addressed.
Traditionally, inclusion in education is focused somewhat narrowly around this question of, how do we best educate children and students with special educational needs? There's a broader contemporary definition of inclusivity and inclusion. Just within the last, it seems to me, maybe decade and a half or maybe generation, we've seen both internationally and domestically a move to define an approach to education that some would call it socially and culturally responsible, some would just simply say that aspires to create spaces for education that are fully accessible for and by all.
It's a broad, almost philosophical aspiration to have educational spaces that are inclusive, and yet, there are some particular elements of that or particular aspects of what it might mean to create an educational environment that is inclusive for all. One of those elements, some people would say, is this notion of identity safety. Identity safety then as an element of this what it would mean to really create a classroom, which is fully accessible and effective for all, really focuses on the social identity piece, and says, there are many different ways you might think about making a classroom inclusive for all. When we focus on the question of how identities intersect the classroom, that gives us purchase on a particular set of objectives and processes that are really aimed at helping make sure that every student sees his or her identities as assets in the classroom, as a resource for themselves and for their teacher and for the other students.
Generally, then, identity safety, as a component of inclusive classrooms, is about recognizing that identities are playing a role in that classroom, not only our students' identities but our own and thinking intentionally and explicitly about how to make the classroom a space where whatever our student's identity is, individually, if you will-- Although many people will point out that identity is always co-created in relationship with others. It calls into question how and individual these identities are, for the purpose of the conversation, that individual identity is one bit, one piece, the student's individual identities and then, what is the particular mix of identities, if you will, in a given classroom. All of these things become relevant sources of inquiry as we think about what it means to investigate identity safety in this space and to work toward making a space more identity safe.
Matthew: Fantastic. That helps a lot. You've given a sneak preview, a little bit, of what an inclusive classroom might look like. I think for most- the vast majority of people, who teach at USF, their intent is to create an identity safe classroom. I imagine all of us think we're doing that, and I'm sure, some of the time, we are. Part of what I wanted to ask you is, as an instructor, if you want to get a better temperature about whether your classes really identity safe or not, what are some of the things you could look out for to see if it's not being a welcoming space? What would be good indicators, or how would you get good evidence to say, "I need to adjust a little bit"?
Rhonda: Well, it's a great question. The folks who study and write about identity safety have often described it as an ongoing inquiry so that it's less, kind of a binary, is it safe or not, more a question of relative safety and dynamic. A space can be fairly safe on day one, day two, day three, week one, week two, week three, something can happen and it could shift. We think about it as something that is somewhat dynamic, something that we are attuning ourselves to on a regular basis. That is a way of providing a preface for, what is it then that you're attuning to? What is it that you're looking for?
I think, really, what folks are often looking for is any indication that a particular student or maybe group of students is not feeling as if the class, the curriculum, the learning community is one that is inviting of their point of view, their contributions, what they have to offer value. It requires being sensitive, being a little bit, perhaps, more sensitive than many faculty were taught as being essential to what it means to be a really good teacher.
You look for, again, patterns of folks not contributing when invited to contribute. We know there are many different things that can affect that particular variable. One is just personalities. People have different tendencies around that. However, there can be indications that a person who's otherwise willing to jump in, in a particular space or under certain circumstances, is less so. We want to look for any indications that students feel afraid in a space, feel uncomfortable.
Really, what you're doing is bringing to bear whatever skills we may have in terms of social and emotional intelligence, bringing those skills to bear on a kind of an ongoing investigation or-- Claude Steele uses the phrase sluicing. He suggests we should all be identity sluice to see that these social interactions are almost mysterious. They are delicate. You are paying attention even as you're doing whatever substantive content delivery or technical exercise or whatever it is that you're doing. A part of you, as an identity part of you as a professor or an instructor, wearing your hat as an identity sleuth is also paying attention to whether or not some students or groups of students feel less invited into the conversation or have seemingly turned off.
Then, there's the question, what can you do if you notice things like that? I think there are some particular things you can do like check-in with the student or one-on-one, and perhaps, a group, if you see it happening group-wise. It's best to try and do those check-ins as I think would be intuitive for most teachers outside of class so as not to put folks on the spot, and then, also be open to the fact that we could be wrong. What we think might be going on may not be going on at all. There are particular interventions one can try and make when you see something going, when you sense that some particular student might not be feeling as comfortable in the classroom.
There are also things to do in an advance to try to set up a space, so that it is as safe as possible for all. As you indicated, a lot of faculty here at USF already try to do these things. For me, personally, I think of it as spending some time and some thought around or looking at who is it that I'm assuming is the audience for this exercise, class point of view that I want to put out there? What are my assumptions? When I think through, in terms of social identities that may be implicitly playing a role in my head, then, I'll have a second question, which is, are some of those identities going to be more comfortable with this exercise, with this content than others?
There may not be something that you can do to alleviate those discomfort altogether, but if we think about those things in advance, we might be in a better position than we might than otherwise or if we don't. Thinking in advance about this question of, "Who's in my classroom, what groups are represented, what aren't?" Based on what I know about the world I live in, socially and culturally, historically, where are some of the places where the intersection between content and social identity might give rise to some tension in the classroom? Many of us aren't teaching courses where it would be obvious, right?
Matthew: Right.
Rhonda: Part of it is just remaining sensitive to the fact that even if you're not teaching a course, which is going to obviously raise these issues, again, because the classroom is a social space, students may sometimes bring in issues or may make comments that, when heard by others, could impact the sense of safety in the classroom.
Being attuned is not only about thinking in advance about what you can do as a faculty to set up a classroom in a particular assignment or a particular lecture for maximum safety, but also just thinking about what is happening right now between and amongst my students and how prepared am I to assist them if something does come up that might create a sense of unsafety and moving from unsafety to a sense of safety again, even if it might be for a period that you sit with that discomfort because one of the things is important to distinguish is safety and comfort.
Safety, for me, is an ongoing effort. I do think of it as an ongoing effort, again, as opposed to, we're safe or not but an effort to make everyone feel that their point of view is valued, that they, as individuals, are valued in that space even if their point of view differs from mine, differs from others in the classroom, but that it's their classroom. Comfort, by contrast, is a promise that you'll never be pushed out of your, as we use it colloquially, comfort zone. That's not something that any of us can guarantee in any of our classrooms, so I'd like to talk to my students about the difference between safety and comfort, and prepare them and invite them to move into spaces of discomfort as a means of stretching and growing and learning together.
Matthew: I think most of us would like our students to be, not uncomfortable all the time, but we wanted to test out new ideas, new approaches, which they're going to naturally feel less comfortable with, but yet, safe at the same time so they can explore.
Rhonda: Precisely.
Matthew: Got you. I want to go back a little bit because you brought up a lot right now. I'm wondering if there are any, this may happen on a minority of the time, but any obvious signs that you should be thinking about things differently. Let me give you an example. One of the things that the two of us experienced this year in some of the conversations we had with other people was, for lack of a better term, the one-off situation, the one-off being the only male student in a large class full of females or the only African-American male in a class- or the only African-American in a large class, that the one-off situation. Are there other things like that that we could be even almost pre- attuned to, that there might be some difficulties or special sensitivities we need to develop?
Rhonda: Yes, I think that situation that you described where the demographics are such that there's a skew in terms of representation where there's only one, perhaps, again, associated dynamics around that person feeling like they have to speak for the group, they're under a microscope, they might be considered as some sort of a token. There are all kinds of things that militate against, as an institutional matter, having those one-off classes if we can avoid it, but of course, we as faculty, usually have no choice. We don't get to select our classes typically and can't avoid these situations.
When that happens, there are particular things we can try to do. We can try and get to know all of our students as well as possible as individuals but certainly that particular student, and then, that can provide a door such that if something does come up, you've already established something, a relationship, so when you call on that person for a little bit of a conversation post-event or post-incident, it's part of an ongoing relationship. It's not the first time you've tried to talk to this person. I should back up and say there are domains, if you will, of identity safety that had been identified by the researchers. There are four of them. One of them is making relationship an important feature of your classroom.
Again, just to leave that up with what I just said. If you have already been thinking about making relationships important, then, you know that means that your relationship with each student is important, any person who's a member of a single-represented group, certainly. Then, you're thinking about the ways in which they're relating to each other, the students are relating to each other, and intentionally, developing projects and assignments and different ways for folks to develop more relationships.
The other domains of identity safety, by the way, relationship-centered classrooms, classrooms in which you explicitly talk about how diversity is a value, and generally, the different ways diversity is valuable with regard to this particular topic. Coming to that, revisiting that theme and weaving it through the classroom is an objective for those who are thinking about it and its safety, generally. Making a classroom student-centered, which again, is a little bit different from relationship-centered, but it's really student perspective center. Then, next, having classrooms in which caring is visible not denigrated. That one is hard for a lot of faculty because most of us were not raised to be emotional in public or to necessarily have a sense that it's okay to express care in a professional setting.
Matthew: Look at us. We did fine.
Rhonda: [laughs] Yes, we managed.
Matthew: It worked for us.
Rhonda: We came out fine. Exactly. There's another piece of this conversation, which could be about the legitimate concerns that faculty may express when they think about how they would go about doing more of this if this isn't something they've normally been doing. To get back to your question about what are other kinds of situations where we know it may trigger us if we look at the class and see that this dynamic is here to be thinking about identity safety.
Another situation, I think, is situations where you have clearly distinct multicultural groups. This is a dynamic that's more and more common among USF faculty. While we're also learning about what to do, the best practices or more effective practices for addressing those dynamics, there are some things that we can do if we think about them in advance and if we plan in advance to try and make the best of that situation and the learning opportunities that are presented amongst the students given those dynamics.
The ones that maybe and particularly the most challenging have to do with when there is that one person of an underrepresented minority or member, if you will, who's the only one. Then, these situations where you have groups that are distinct enough, perhaps, from the first class but maybe developing later, seeing fissures between the groups, some sort of divide that is obvious enough to you, as a faculty member, that you might consciously and intentionally start thinking of ways to bring those groups together.
Matthew: I want to bring up a final point because I know we're just introducing and touching on things, and hopefully, we'll have the opportunity in the future to explore some issues at a deeper level. One of the key issues that you brought up was talking about being aware of what's going on in the classroom. Probably, for a lot of faculty, in the moment, we see things, but to really truly process things is difficult because there's the content.
It doesn't matter whether we're lecturing or doing small group activities or something, but in the moment, we're already dealing with a lot of things. It just reminds me, it seems like the awareness of what's going on in the classroom seems like a really good advice, but probably, too difficult for most of us to really be consciously aware of that and respond to the moment. Sometimes, yes, but there's probably a lot of things that are lost.
It seems to indicate to me that a really crucial role in all of this is the role of reflection. Meaning, once the class is done, doing something purposeful-- I don't know what that something is. It could be just writing a few notes writing or taking some time until you just rush off to the next thing, but just sitting down and thinking about things. This last question, I'm just wondering what your impressions are of the role of instructor reflection as a way of processing, and then, maybe planning for the next class that might be two days or a week off and if there's any particular techniques you advise them.
Rhonda: That's a really good point. In terms of methods for doing it, you just alluded to maybe a little bit of journaling. Even if one develops a practice of just taking the first 5, 10, 15 minutes after each class and maybe you do it only in those classes where you know you have some of these identity issues that you're trying to sort through or maybe you do it on a regular basis, but as appropriate to incorporate a regular practice of reflecting, specifically, on this particular aspect of how your class is doing.
I would also suggest that faculty think about developing peer relationships with folks with whom they can bounce off what's coming up for them in those reflections. If what they're seeing is something of a pattern, they're not quite sure if it's a pattern, and/or they might not be sure how to respond to it, there are folks around who have some, if not expertise, some experience, some interests, some will, some concern, who would be more than willing to sit with you as a faculty member and mutually strategize, try to figure out some way of responding to those patterns that you might be observing.
Another thought that comes to mind, I've already alluded to it but reflecting with your students. Again, for me, it's become important, in as many classes as I can, to make my interest in creating a learning space that works for everybody, explicit, and to invite my students into that as a mutual project. That may or may not be something that you can incorporate explicit conversation about into your classes or any given professor may or may not be able to do that, but to a degree, we do, then that provides another foundation point such that we can reflect not only on our own but reflect together with our students about some of the things that we've seen in the classroom.
To help create a foundation for that, thinking about things like conversation agreements or class commitments, ways that you as a class set forth at the very beginning as ways that you ideally want to work together, and then, again, that provides something of a touchstone such that if on your personal reflection or on everybody's obvious since something is gone awry around some of these identity issues, you can use whatever you stated as your aspirations or agreements at the beginning as an opportunity not only for us to reflect this faculty alone but for us to support our students in a mutual reflection aimed, of course, at really sitting with and understanding what happened as best we can, bringing our sense of care and concern for and helping shift that class back into a space where everybody feels-- Again, if not entirely comfortable, at least, valued, respected, cared for in that space.
Matthew: Great. Rhonda, thank you so much for sharing your time out of your very, very busy day. I realize that. Hopefully, we'll have the opportunity to talk about some of these issues again in the future.
Rhonda: Thank you, Matthew. It's been fun.
[00:29:21] [END OF AUDIO]


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